Recently, there has been a ton of discussion over female bosses and female co-workers in general (see "Don't Get Me Wrong") here at Jobschmob.com. People have weighed in on the pros and cons of women in the workplace, and the exchanges have been sometimes heated.
What is undeniable is that there is something going wrong...
My grandfather didn't send his four girls to college so that they could crawl under some guy's desk. Or play the petty conniving bitch whenever possible. Yet they all said at some point that working with a bunch of women could be a sentence to Hell.
I will leave it up to women to explain all this. I know that guys can be jerks, too.
Yet, the bad feelings surrounding some of female co-workers remain.
The good women I've worked with seem to be outnumbered, and have openly commented about the catty games and backstabbing.
As I've said, the guys are not off the hook. I believe that in at least half the time, vicious female co-workers, cliques, or bosses are either enabled or actively encouraged by male or male-leaning senior management to effectively disable or remove any and all that might be in a position to ask for more pay or better working situations or conditions.
Divide and conquer....
How perfect! The target is told that "people are complaining about you". The bully or mob is warned that "the new guy/gal has impressed the hell out of me", without the assurance of security.
The more victims the bully or mob racks up, the more pressure can be brought to bear on them. In that way they become more antagonistic , and more protective of themselves.
Most female bullies or mobs seem to be in a holding pattern. Real promotions or pay raises don't occur. Besides, getting a new office or job may just make one the next target.
Speaking strictly from my own experience, I'd never work in a place where obvious females cliques exist.
There are a number of convergent forces that have brought this to pass, and I'll be discussing them in a future blog here.
Meanwhile, I'd like to hear some feedback. Why is the impression of most female co-workers so negative, even from other women?
HaveADamnNiceDay(11/08/2007)
SP has made a good observation. When you push someone down and hold them in a pig puckey pile, they wallow in it and don't realize they can get out.
Look at some of the bad stereotypes for minorities. In inner cities, what kind of neighborhoods do you see? Minorities, crammed together living in filth, and WALLOWING in it---violent crimes against each other, rape, robbery, murder over petty issues. It's hard to live a decent life in the midst of all that.
These unfortunate individuals end up behaving like caged starved animals---and when they get loose, they tear someone apart. They are miserable because they are held down, put down, disrespected and taught that survival means devouring each other alive.
When they DO manage to succeed, others get angry and try to tear them back down.
It's a classic human condition: The Abused become abusers, abuse others and create abusers out of them too.
Women are acutely aware that the world is 'a man's world'. Men have domineered over women throughout history through sheer brute strength. We are approaching times where this is becoming less and less tolerable. However, men seem to take pride in their physical superioriy, even relish in it, and use it as a weapon to intimidate and overpower. It is a huge strike to the male ego to be outdone by a woman at anything that does not involve making a meal or changing a diaper.
It isn't hard to pass down that attitude to male subordinates, either. Who doesn't want to feel superior to someone else? Very few would say no.
Men (white men in particular) have been in charge in this country for a very long time, and have been living lives of luxury, power and influence. Why would they want to give that up to some "smart chick" that thinks differently and has differentt ideas? She might upset their gravy train. Better to skimp on her pay, treat her like she's stupid and offer her what she wants only if she'll compromise her honor. The men in power will be smug because they knows she's in their pocket and didn't "earn" her position or pay.
It's as though alot of men can't acccept a smart woman, can't bear the thought of it. If she's attractive, they'd rather treat her like a discardable toy than a human being.
Being treated like this to a greater or lesser degree can make alot of women crazy ambitious and vengeful bitches.
Women have odd ways of coping with this. Yes, we do hold grudges. We get personal.
Mess with a man and he'll punch you in the face and then forget about the offense.
Mess with a woman and she'll smile to your face and then make detailed and devious plans to ruin your whole damn life.
Who was it who said "Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned"?
Bookwoman(11/08/2007)
I have to agree with SouthernProgrammer for the most part. When women started settling into corporate positions too many women's magazines had too many articles about how to behave at work to get ahead...and it was all bad advice. Women have inherently different strengths then men, that they have set aside or tried to cover over. If everyone - male or female - would simply be who they really are, instead of playing roles, the working world would be more real, more comfortable, and less nuts. Not to say that people should treat their work space like their own living room, just be reasonable with their interactions with one another. I've seen some people in their work persona and then in their home persona, and it's like seeing split personalities. Too many women put on their suits or whatever their work outfits are as if they're donning armor...which of course is just a prelude to battle. I think women just haven't figured out how to be themselves. Although they haven't always gotten much credit when they have...
Regardless of gender, the corporation of America has gone down the wrong roads in oh, so many ways. It's a long way from where we are in our society to where we could be, as far as workplace attitudes and relationships.
HaveADamnNiceDay(11/08/2007)
Bookwoman, you are the most down-to-earth person I've seen in a while. You're making total sense.
I agree with what you said about roles and being ourselves. That's one of the reasons I love my job and my boss so much. I'm allowed to be myself---we all are. It makes for a work environment in perpetual hilarity (especially since we work in a miserable industry). Most everyone I work with is pretty crazy (in a good way).
I'll bet you'd be fun to work with ^_^.
Experienced(11/09/2007)
I work with a woman who is deeply involved in the Feminist Movement, and in fact, is considered an expert on women's issues. She told me once that the biggest hinderance to a woman advancing in the business world is another woman.
The research is not yet clear on whether or not it is some kind of social-environmental concept of "females are threatened by other females" or if it is "I drug myself up, and you should have to drag yourself too," or what.
The research shows, though, that men are much more likely to supportive of women, than women are of women.
Bookwoman(11/10/2007)
Thanks for the kind words, HaveADamnNiceDay (I LOVE this name!). I must have been writing my comment at the same time you were writing your first one, because yours was not there when I started writing and voila! after I submitted mine, there was yours! I was nodding in agreement as I read your post. I will admit - this semester I was taking a Women's Studies class and learning a heck of alot more than I expected to, as a person with some years under my belt. Your comments, as well as others, mirror some of that class lesson content. And as Experienced wrote, the studies that show women are the least supportive of anyone, are surely accurate. Not sure why that is, other than lack of self certainty. Still...
One of the lessons I've learned (and as with all lessons, learned the hard way) with age is to celebrate it all, including learning new tricks as an old dog (that would be a German Shepherd dog, think RinTinTin here). I have noticed in my various work environments that when I admit to some sort of weakness, or lack of knowledge, it calms and comforts my co-workers, in a good way. I've therefore taken this approach in a manipulative way, I admit. Sometimes I will act naive, as if I do not know or understand something when I absolutely do, just to allow space to others, as a way to create an atmosphere in which it is OK to not know or understand something. I've noticed that at work, at least, people are more tense about more things than are worth being tense about. That prohibits learning, or acting, or doing, or even enjoying. I love it when a co-worker discovers something they can do, or do better, than they thought they could. And I have no limits in any way in this regard, I don't care if it's the office b***h, the back-stabber, the crazy, the lazy, a man, a woman, whatever. Whenever anyone creates something positive, it's a gift. For themselves, and those around them. If someone around me gains something positive, and I mean actually positive, not just a trophy of some sort, I am happy as all get out for them. There is too little good and too much that is hard in this world, to NOT stop and celebrate. And people just don't know how to do that.
And I thank people. When the custodial crew comes in at the end of the day, I tell them how much I appreciate the vacuuming, the dusting, the window washing, whatever. It makes a difference to me during my work day, to know my work area has been taken care of. I thank the office nut who does not give me the material I need on time, when she finally get it to me (although in my own way - "Thanks for bringing that file down, Mary. I appreciate your walking it to me, and not putting it in the in bin, because I really need it.").
Don't know if I'm good to work with or not. I care about the work I do, believe it's important, put it first (before socializing, or smoke breaks), value myself and others...but on the other hand, I put the work first, I hold people accountable when appropriate (which is very uncomfortable for them when they are not holding themselves accountable), I call it what it is ("It is what it is" will surely be carved on my headstone), and do not hesitate to point out the pink elephant in the middle of the room, whatever it might be that day. All in as cordial a manner as possible, of course...
The professor who teaches my Women's Studies class and I have had conversations over the years (yes, I work at a university, god save us all from institutions of higher learning). Early on, out of the blue, she asked me how long I had been a feminist. This took me completely by surprise. I have never seen myself as a feminist (although I do loathe bras, which were invented by a man). My first thought was that I am not a feminist, I am, if anything, a person-ist. I hope for, and try to contribute to in my own small way, the betterment of anyone I come in contact with, including other drivers, the person ringing up my groceries, and the man standing in the street selling papers. Since taking the class, I have learned more about the reality of the women's movement, and can sympathize with the crazy women screaming that she is not a girl. She's still in her baby stages of discovering her worth. That can be painful, and when pain is deep enough, it manifests as anger. While her fits are uncomfortable for you, and really, not acceptable behavior at work, and even horrifyingly amusing on certain levels (for people with sick senses of humor, such as all of us have at one time or another), they're (hopefully) growing pains. Sometimes people get stuck in their angry places, and don't visit their "happy places" enough, but that's when they need a little nudge. You know the kind - the ones you give, but make them think they've done themselves.
And after thinking about workplace gender relationships more, I think the social aspect carries its weight into the workplace more than we realize. In many places, women and men (or boys and girls) do not "work" socialize with one another easily. How many women go to lunch with men and vice versa? At my place of work, I am friends with some men who are absolutely wonderful people, who are my friends, but with whom I do not even go out to lunch with. It just - isn't done. Even though these co-workers would go to lunch with me in a heart-beat, we never do. We silently, tacitly conform to the unspoken, social mores which would give rise to gossip about us. And if we did socialize together, just by going out for lunch, we would build relationships that would strengthen us all in our work roles.
Which reminds me. I'm hungry. Time for breakfast!
Bookwoman(11/10/2007)
My comments about the woman screaming she was not a girl were written while thinking about another post, by Coworker From Hell - sorry for confusion.
avid reader(11/10/2007)
Agreed all around. Bookwoman, your comment: "Regardless of gender, the corporation of America has gone down the wrong roads in oh, so many ways. It's a long way from where we are in our society to where we could be, as far as workplace attitudes and relationships." is beautiful and dead on.
For the most part, I have had great working relationships with my female coworkers (I am female). It was only my women bosses that caused me pain. This is so so sad because I feel like screaming, "Come on ladies, can't we all stick together?!" But alas, it's true, women who move higher up become territorial. And you are so right, HADND when you say, "Being treated like this to a greater or lesser degree can make alot of women crazy ambitious and vengeful bitches." Amen sister. And personally, although it still goes on, I strongly feel that this way of behaving came developed in the 1980's and has been the MO of women climbing the ladder every since.
How sad.
I long for a reset button. We could really use a serious do-over knowing what we know now.
dontask 0(11/11/2007)
This utter lack of respect and the repeated crossing of personal boundaries is so annoying in the workplace.
ResearchScientist(11/12/2007)
Amen, sisters! I could not have written it better, HAND and BookWomen and avid reader. It is a complicated mess. I wish all women regardless of their place in the social structure of work, take a moment to reach down behind them and take the hand of the woman below them and help them to their feet, instead of pushing them down. United we stand and divided we fall, is trite but true! If we could stand together, there is nothing we could not accomplish. I think this frightens the opposite sex.
Have you also noticed that male bonding movies are the new Hollywood? Also you have noticed that female roles have become more and more antagonistic and that female bonding has been reduced to a woman pitted against another woman for of all things; a man!
the confessor(11/12/2007)
This brings us back to the beginning: The Disguised Discrimination...
callcenterhell(11/20/2007)
Hi,
I was the one who started the whole s--tstorm but after I said my peace I pretty much let it go. I just want to say that it is not usually female coworkers, it is female supervisors. But I think in either sex it depends on how you were brought up and how spoiled you were. Unfortunately, it seems that less and less people get to be boss from working up from the lower positions. My last job I worked in an animal shelter (very stressful but also rewarding) and I was the only male full time who worked there. I got on great with almost everyone but one girl who everyone hated. When our male boss left who do you think got promoted to his position? Of course, the nasty b--tch. But the girls got it worse than me and they all ended up criticizing each other and hating work and all the good workers quit, which sucked for the animals.
The females who I worked with at the animal place were tough young women who worked their asses off in terrible conditions and complained less than I did, until the new boss came in.
Believe it or not, I don't remember ever having a discussion with men I've worked with anywhere about 'keeping women down'. We don't want to do that, we don't think you should all be secretaries. We just don't want to get stuck with a tyrannical bitch or spoiled princess. Which is usually (not always) what you get with women bosses. It's like in their eyes you are either your their best buddy or you are a piece of crap.
And most workplaces almost have like affirmative action now where women are encouraged and hired all the time to be supervisors. There is not this glass ceiling everywhere. More than half the bosses here are female, including the two highest ranking members of the building.
dontask :((11/20/2007)
Even the nicest woman I ever met did something incredibly inconsiderate and downright stupid.
She was in a semi supervisory position. We had worked together for several years when she decided to have a baby, yielded to a little pressure and resigned rather then fight for a maternity leave.
Enter new but old and grumpy supervisor. So old and grumpy discusses new job opening and her assistant was going to post it the next day. New mom would have been a good fit for that job. She had already filled it part time.
As soon as I could I alerted new mom to impending job opening. I especially warned her to wait until the job opening was posted the next day or we both could end up in a bad spot. She could not wait and phoned within the hour. Of course her haste dashed her chances. Just lucky that old grumpy did not know her or who knew her. She looked surprised and discussed it with her assistant. New mom never interviewed.
At this point in my life I will change the radio or TV channel when a female host starts broadcasting. It may take another century for most females to learn how to cooperate and not put each other in danger.
MillyMoo(01/04/2008)
Hi folks
I've only just found you all today and LOVE this discussion. As someone who has been a manager and also downshifted to a peasant and hated both roles, I agree with a lot of the comments that it is not men these days who are keeping women down; nor is the glass ceiling a problem.
It is successful women who are the problem. We call them 'tall poppies' here in Australia and if they are the only females in the boardroom or corner office, they like it. These sheilas get asked to speak at power breakfasts, interviewed by media on how they rose to the top, provide advice to other budding females underneath them... all the while becoming addicted to the attention. Why on earth would they want to allow they female subordinates to stand on the same level? The attention would dry up if the board room was 50-50 male and female wouldn't it?
Instead, these Boardroom Bulldogs talk the right talk and look as though they are supporting other women but only if it helps them from an HR/Management perspective('Oh yeah, she's a wonderfully supportive manager') or from a salary/promotion/more resource perspective.
I'd like to think that I'd be above all that if I were ever successful in my chosen field but I still find myself passing time some evenings making b**chy wisecracks about what the weather girls, sitcom darlings etc are wearing.
Is there some gene within us that won't allow us to share our successes if it also means sharing the spotlight?
If you have any case studies or advice or opinions, I'd love to hear them - katherine@kern.com.au
quality248(02/01/2008)
As a woman who works in the quality field, I know how difficult it is to prove yourself -- both to women and men. Women to tend to be more petty but I know some men who are little b**ches too.
In my experience the best thing to do is not react and get caught up in the negative attitude of co-workers. It's very hard to do but always keep the higher ground and you will be successful. Unfortunately, some of us will always have to prove ourselves over and over again but as long as we're doing our very best and have good results we will be successful.
UnsupportedSupport(02/01/2008)
I also feel a bit late to the table, but I have a unique office environment. I work at a small business with about 10 people in the off and I am the only male. We have three male sales reps in the field, but they are very rarely in the office. We have all of these problems without any male boss influence. I'm the IT guy so I am completely out of the process of how the business is run. I won't go into detail on the problems, because I have done that plenty on my postings. The owner of the company is a woman and low-balls all of the new hires so I don't know why the women looking for some form of equality don't ask for more. I think when it comes to payroll, male or female is irrelevant. They are going to pay you as little as you are willing to accept.
post to digg | 
post to del.icio.us | 
e-mail it
RSS Feed
Like my blog?